Living Your Values: Content Creation in Complicated Times with Jess Zander from You Can Do It Gardening | Hello Merge Tag Ep. 37

“It can’t just be about the things that affect us as individuals. It has to be broader.”

• How she got started (not that long ago!)
• The types of content that’s working for her
• The difference in response she sees across platforms
• How she would start now, if she were starting from scratch
• Why she’s public about her values, despite working in a non-political space
• Why she’s comfortable losing followers to speak her truths
• And so much more

As Jess puts it:

“It’s a business decision, but it’s also just a values decision… I don’t feel that this is the time to be silent. Silence is complicit.”

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Links

Website | Instagram | Facebook | TikTok | YouTube

It’s Modern Millie: The Instagram instructor she mentioned

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Episode Transcript

This transcript was automatically generated and has not been copy-edited. While it can serve as a helpful guide to our conversation, it may contain errors or omissions. For the most accurate representation, we recommend listening to (or watching) the full episode.

Josh Klemons. Okay. There’s been a lot of talk lately about looking for a Joe Rogan of the left. The whole thing is ridiculous for so many reasons. Instead of banking on a single superstar personality to magically unite our movement, what we really need to do as a party is to amplify the many voices of folks aligned with our values already creating great content online for large audiences. Which is why I’m so happy today to chat with Jess Xander of You Can Do It Gardening. Jess is a Bostonbased gardening coach and consultant who launched You Can Do It Gardening in 2022 to help everyday people feel confident tackling their gardens no matter their experience level. My wife is the green thumb in our household, but Jess’s content is super relatable and fun. Even if you’re not a gardening afficionado, Jess is known for her nononsense, encouraging style. Think Mary Poppins, but for your garden. So, is Jess the Joe Rogan of the left? Obviously not. But is she a content creator with a large and engaged audience? She is. And while she’s definitely not leading with politics, she’s also not shying away from her progressive values.

Josh Klemons: So, Jess, thank you so much for joining me on the podcast. Let’s start with where are you in the world? Uh you’re not in Boston. Tell us uh tell us what’s going on in your backyard first.
Jessica Zander: Yeah, great. Well, thanks for having me, Josh. Um,
Josh Klemons: Yeah,
Jessica Zander: I’m excited about this conversation. Right now, I’m in the middle of a of a thunderstorm in New Hampshire where we have a cottage
Josh Klemons: I love
Jessica Zander: and
Josh Klemons: it.
Jessica Zander: so I’m on vacation this week. Uh, which is great. We climbed Mount Manadnok yesterday. Um, and I love to work in the garden here, but it’s also good to take a little break in the
Josh Klemons: Yeah,
Jessica Zander: rain.
Josh Klemons: the rain the rain forces the break, I would imagine.
Jessica Zander: Yep.
Josh Klemons: Um, h, so I’m very curious how you got started. Um, I mean, you started in 2022. You haven’t been doing this 20 years. How did you get you’ve built a very large audience in a quite a short period of time.
Josh Klemons: So, how did you get started building your audience?
Jessica Zander: Oh my goodness. Uh yeah, I mean I had zero people. I was not on any of these platforms. Um and then when I started the business, I thought it would probably be a good idea to be on social media as one as one is and does.
Josh Klemons: Yeah.
Jessica Zander: Um yeah, so I think I uh I remember I did taught a class um which I do twice a year for the comm continuing ed in Arlington and I had 50 people at that time and some it was May of 2022 and the one of the people in the class is like girl we got to get you some more people. Um, so anyway,
Josh Klemons: Look
Jessica Zander: I
Josh Klemons: at look
Jessica Zander: sort of
Josh Klemons: at you now.
Jessica Zander: it
Josh Klemons: Yeah.
Jessica Zander: right I know I know it well I it wasn’t natural for me because I’m just I’m a private person and I wasn’t like I said I wasn’t on any of these platforms but um so I started to uh post I think the first time I put my face on there was you know like March or something of 2022 um and I was sort of limping along and then I actually did a course which was great and
Jessica Zander: I my my impetence for the
Josh Klemons: Sorry.
Jessica Zander: course was
Josh Klemons: You
Jessica Zander: like
Josh Klemons: took
Jessica Zander: let
Josh Klemons: a
Jessica Zander: me
Josh Klemons: course or you gave a course.
Jessica Zander: no I took a
Josh Klemons: Oh, got it.
Jessica Zander: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, I took a like an Instagram course because I was so clueless. I mean, I didn’t even
Josh Klemons: Okay.
Jessica Zander: know what a story was. You
Josh Klemons: Got
Jessica Zander: know what I
Josh Klemons: it. Got it.
Jessica Zander: literally had no clue. Um anyway, so that was that helped a ton. I implemented all the strategies. I mean, they’re not unique, but I loved this person in particular. Um it’s Millie Adrien from It’s Modern Millie. She’s amazing. Anyway, so I employed all the tactics. I think I lucked out in terms of timing. Um, and people were, you know, still kind of in the midst of COVID and

Josh Klemons: Mhm.
Jessica Zander: interested in doing things themselves and saving money and and like seeking solace in the garden and improving their outdoor space. Um, and then things just totally took off in the winter of 2023 to the point where I I like the explosion was so intense that it was it led then to a lot of clients, which was great. So then I kind of as a CFO, which is what I was doing at the time and had been for years in my professional career, um I saw the pipeline of the you know of the clients coming through and felt the degree of confidence and comfort in cash flow and in thinking about um you know the the income kind of trajectory or whatever. So I I left my day job which was
Josh Klemons: Huh?
Jessica Zander: completely unexpected and you know a dream really like who could do that not not very many people get to live leave their day jobs for a passion that they have as a hobby and converted into you know work uh paid work. So that’s how it happened and then I joined up with Tik Tok and Facebook and uh YouTube to a you know smaller extent and then just you know I post all the same stuff on the different platforms and it’s just kind of taken off.
Jessica Zander: I’m just more shocked than anybody I think about the results of
Josh Klemons: I
Jessica Zander: all
Josh Klemons: mean,
Jessica Zander: of
Josh Klemons: yeah,
Jessica Zander: this.
Josh Klemons: that’s not very long for I mean, you’ve got a huge following on some of these
Jessica Zander: Yeah.
Josh Klemons: channels. Um, I I
Jessica Zander: Yeah.
Josh Klemons: am curious, what types of content um are you finding is working these days? Has it changed since you started or I mean, we’re only you’re like what 18 months into like really having a following. That’s what I didn’t realize. I mean, 2022 sounds like
Jessica Zander: a
Josh Klemons: a
Jessica Zander: little
Josh Klemons: long time
Jessica Zander: bit
Josh Klemons: ago,
Jessica Zander: more.
Josh Klemons: but
Jessica Zander: I
Josh Klemons: winter
Jessica Zander: know.
Josh Klemons: in 23 is like really
Jessica Zander: I
Josh Klemons: not that
Jessica Zander: know.
Josh Klemons: long ago. That’s
Jessica Zander: No,
Josh Klemons: wild.
Jessica Zander: it’s true. Yeah, it’s true. Um the types of things I think that um are most helpful to people or most popular are the ones that are most helpful.
Jessica Zander: you know, like people want concrete suggestions, things they can, I think, walk away from a video. Um, you know, understanding better or employing in their own yard. Certain topics are endlessly confounding and confusing for people like hydrangeas. That’s that’s um, you know, really something where people get confused and I love to try to help them understand. Um, pruning is another one. People feel intimidation. Um, they don’t realize how, you know, aggressive they can be. Same thing with dividing plants. You know, you can save a lot of money by dividing what you have. And it sort of achieves this goal of, you know, not only saving money but also creating kind of continuity across the yard by having the same things repeating and and all that. Um, so I think it’s just really about um making things more accessible to people and opening their eyes to realize, oh, this is something I can do myself. I can save money, but I can also connect to my land, to my property, improve my property value, gain control over it.
Jessica Zander: Um, learn, you know, grow, have something beautiful. Um, feel pride. You know, I just love when people get in touch and say, “Oh, I created this whole new bed.” or oh my garden’s never looked better before and you know it’s cuz I transplanted all these things divided pruned whatever I just um it just makes me so happy
Josh Klemons: I I love it. Um, as a content creator, I mean, on a much smaller scale, but I totally understand. I have people reach out to me to like ask me questions about politics, and it’s like it’s like I just started posting like I don’t know. It’s like weird
Jessica Zander: yeah
Josh Klemons: how people like look to you. So, yeah, the idea that you’re
Jessica Zander: yeah
Josh Klemons: helping people change their homes. Yeah. What a powerful like touch point you have in so many people’s lives. It’s really cool. Um I’m
Jessica Zander: it’s a
Josh Klemons: curious.
Jessica Zander: big part of our property value is the is what the landscape looks like.
Jessica Zander: And a lot of people don’t, you know, they take that for granted or they don’t realize what it takes to do it or they’re outsourcing it because it’s out overwhelming and they think they need to do all these specific things and they’re spending a ton of money on
Josh Klemons: Ton
Jessica Zander: landscapers,
Josh Klemons: of money.
Jessica Zander: you know. Anyway, so there’s just so much to unpack. Once I started to work with clients too, it’s like a self perpetuating content machine actually because everybody’s property is a little different. There’s some themes that
Josh Klemons: Sure.
Jessica Zander: are consistent across um clients, but you know, it’s like there are some specific things that resonate for particular or specific people or certain people in different areas with these particular problems or challenges. Um anyway, so
Josh Klemons: No, that’s super interesting. Uh, you sort of already answered this, but I am curious like do you think about the different platforms differently or you really just taking the same piece of content, putting it everywhere and seeing what happens?
Jessica Zander: I think about um
Josh Klemons: Sure.
Jessica Zander: um the the platforms as mostly the same. It’s all the same content. Um occasionally I’ll post longer stuff on YouTube just because I can and um and that’s what that’s really made for. Um, but it’s mostly the mostly the same. I mean, it is it is the same. Uh, what’s different sometimes is the response. Um, and that is endlessly fascinating to me. Like, why is something, you know, doing really well on Instagram but not at all on, you know, Tik Tok or what
Josh Klemons: Yeah.
Jessica Zander: is it about Tik Tok that makes things, you know, more popular or how do con comments vary um, you know, platform to platform? Instagram is where I feel like I have the biggest sort of warmest community, like
Josh Klemons: Huh.
Jessica Zander: actually a community. There’s certain people that come up again and again and again that I feel like I’m I know I’m connected with. I’ve actually connected with a few people privately offline and they’re like I consider them friends.
Jessica Zander: You know, this is actually a a format of um and a venue where, you know, friendships can be forged um and formed. But um yeah, I think uh Tik Tok and Facebook are a little more removed and anonymous. Facebook people can be real jerks where I don’t feel that on Instagram certainly and and also not on Tik Tok. So it’s just fascinating,
Josh Klemons: Yeah,
Jessica Zander: you know.
Josh Klemons: that’s so interesting. I I run a ton of Facebook ads for political candidates. I see the worst types of comments on there.
Jessica Zander: Yeah.
Josh Klemons: Um, and
Jessica Zander: Yeah.
Josh Klemons: it’s like I have some trolls on TikTok, but despite the fact I’m creating very political partisan content, like 99% of my comments are positive or, you
Jessica Zander: Yeah.
Josh Klemons: know, like frustrated with me, but you know, like, yeah, it’s so interesting. Facebook,
Jessica Zander: Yeah.
Josh Klemons: I don’t I don’t know what makes Facebook so angry, but it’s a very angry platform in that regard.
Jessica Zander: Right. I
Josh Klemons: Yeah, it’s
Jessica Zander: know.
Josh Klemons: interesting. Like, I
Jessica Zander: Yeah.
Josh Klemons: see it politically. It’s interesting you see it in something that’s not political like as well. The same same takeaway.
Jessica Zander: Yep.
Josh Klemons: Um,
Jessica Zander: Yep.
Josh Klemons: if you were you you also kind of already answered this, like take a course, but like if you were starting today, right now, if you had zero followers in 2025, would you recommend taking a course to get started or like what what’s
Jessica Zander: Oh
Josh Klemons: the
Jessica Zander: yeah.
Josh Klemons: first thing you would do? Would you start on one channel or all four? Like how would you approach it if
Jessica Zander: No,
Josh Klemons: you were brand
Jessica Zander: start
Josh Klemons: new
Jessica Zander: with
Josh Klemons: again?
Jessica Zander: one. Start with one. Get it down. Understand the way it works. It’s very time consuming to monitor multiple channels. I mean, I have it down now. Like, I I have a routine. I post, but I cannot keep up with all the comments.

Jessica Zander: Um, but that’s a different I mean, that’s like a problem. That’s a nice problem to have. You
Josh Klemons: Yeah,
Jessica Zander: know what I mean? Like to have so
Josh Klemons: right.
Jessica Zander: many comments that you have a hard time, you know? I feel I’m not really I don’t want to complain about it, but I just want to say um that I think getting getting the flow down and the routine of a platform, understanding it before taking on another one and then integrating that one in. I’d say then take another one in, then another one, and make sure you can manage the flow of the work. Um, I do keep my eye on comments because I do want to make sure there’s nothing super negative or divisive in there, which certainly can happen. And also if there’s a learning opportunity, so I’ll catch it in, you know, if I if I can. Um, where someone has a question that would if I answer it will help to advance the understanding of other people as well.
Jessica Zander: I get a lot of just
Josh Klemons: Sure.
Jessica Zander: random questions. I unfortunately can’t, you know, I can’t monitor or answer all of those, but I do try to get to, you know, ones that I can. Yeah.
Josh Klemons: I will echo that. I spend way more time responding to comments than I do creating content. Like creating content for me,
Jessica Zander: Yeah.
Josh Klemons: I post at least I I post about once a day on TikTok and creating content takes very little time. Monitoring the comments takes
Jessica Zander: Yeah.
Josh Klemons: significantly more time for me personally. Um
Jessica Zander: Right.
Josh Klemons: so I find that as well. It’s like it’s a challenge, a nice challenge to have, but it’s a challenge for sure.
Jessica Zander: Right. And you never know
Josh Klemons: Sure.
Jessica Zander: when someone’s going to want to be a client. Like I monitor also for do you do consultations and sometimes people don’t understand the model. So then I want to send them to my website or you know that kind of thing.
Jessica Zander: Um I will usually respond also to if someone’s flailing around with invasive plants and needs a little bit of coaching I will say like check out the invasives playlist or highlighter depending on the um thing. But you know what I mean and it’s also this
Josh Klemons: Sure.
Jessica Zander: sort of human instinct. I’m sure you feel the same. Like you want to engage with the
Josh Klemons: Of course.
Jessica Zander: people,
Josh Klemons: Yeah,
Jessica Zander: right?
Josh Klemons: they’re
Jessica Zander: Like
Josh Klemons: real people. You want to talk
Jessica Zander: they’re
Josh Klemons: to them, but
Jessica Zander: real people,
Josh Klemons: like you’ve
Jessica Zander: right?
Josh Klemons: got so many followers. I imagine the comments are can feel overwhelming at
Jessica Zander: Yeah.
Josh Klemons: times.
Jessica Zander: Yeah. Yeah. Again,
Josh Klemons: Yeah.
Jessica Zander: it’s a
Josh Klemons: You do
Jessica Zander: nice
Josh Klemons: the best
Jessica Zander: problem
Josh Klemons: you can.
Jessica Zander: to have.
Josh Klemons: Exactly.
Jessica Zander: I’m not,
Josh Klemons: Exactly.
Jessica Zander: you know, it’s like I’m I’m really fortunate to have all the engagement.
Jessica Zander: People are so awesome, you know. Really
Josh Klemons: Yeah.
Jessica Zander: great.
Josh Klemons: At least on Instagram.
Jessica Zander: Yeah.
Josh Klemons: Yeah.
Jessica Zander: Mostly on the other platforms,
Josh Klemons: Yeah. I
Jessica Zander: too.
Josh Klemons: know.
Jessica Zander: I
Josh Klemons: Just
Jessica Zander: didn’t mean to disparage,
Josh Klemons: No, I
Jessica Zander: but
Josh Klemons: know.
Jessica Zander: it’s just a different It’s a different vibe.
Josh Klemons: Yeah,
Jessica Zander: Yeah.
Josh Klemons: for sure. Um,
Jessica Zander: Yeah.
Josh Klemons: okay. So, you’re quite publicly a relative of Holocaust survivors, which is something you and
Jessica Zander: Yeah.
Josh Klemons: I share actually. Um,
Jessica Zander: Yeah.
Josh Klemons: but I am curious, how does that part of your identity shape your worldview? Like, is that relevant to you as we’re watching what’s happening in the news? Like, obviously you live in the gardening space, but like
Jessica Zander: Yeah.
Josh Klemons: there’s there’s a world beyond the garden, right? Like, so how how does that like roll into both your worldview and like how you approach things?
Jessica Zander: Yeah. H such a big question. I did post something in February just kind of summarizing that or touching
Josh Klemons: It’s your
Jessica Zander: on that
Josh Klemons: pinned
Jessica Zander: a
Josh Klemons: post.
Jessica Zander: little bit.
Josh Klemons: If folks are looking for it, it’s her pinned post, I believe, on the channels.
Jessica Zander: Yeah. Yeah. On on all on Tik Tok, too. Um and on on Facebook, all of them. I just wanted people to understand at the outset like of this administration. Here’s where I stand. I don’t want to make a big thing about it. I don’t I’m not going to be posting regularly on this necessarily, but here’s an opportunity as I’m coming back from Thailand and Vietnam, which is where I had been, to clarify my own values for myself and then to put it out there as in case it’s relevant. And I know it is relevant for some people. I mean, I’ve heard from a lot of people who say, “I’m actually unfollowing people who are not publicly taking a stand.”
Jessica Zander: I think um I think it’s important to do that. I, you know, I wouldn’t necessarily unfollow someone personally, but I would unfollow someone who has a very different stand on important matters to me, you know, that are in conflict with my values if they’re going to be posting something that’s um, you know, doesn’t work for me in my values. Um, but I think it it is all related to my background, but also the degree of privilege that I have. like you know it’s cliche but to think about all the people in the 30s in Nazi Germany as things
Josh Klemons: Sure.
Jessica Zander: were evolving and my grandparents were there and then were Jewish so they got the feeling pretty quickly oh we need to get out of here and they left my great-g grandandmother there and she perished like she they couldn’t bring her over we have all these letters that have been translated only in one direction of course but from her um and that you know because is his letters. My grandfather’s letters didn’t survive
Josh Klemons: Sure.
Jessica Zander: um but we have all these letters we have letters that they were translated by my aunt and uncle um from German. And so then there’s the same amount of footnotes that there are in the actual letters in these documents. So that you know uh several inches thick, three inches maybe thick and
Josh Klemons: Wow.
Jessica Zander: half of that is footnotes providing context for the circumstances and um what was happening in Germany at at that time you know there’s a lot of comparison not to be dramatic and I’m not original in pointing this out but
Josh Klemons: No,
Jessica Zander: it’s you
Josh Klemons: sure.
Jessica Zander: know you’d like to think and many people have asked themselves oh what would I have done in that situation wouldn’t I have been one of the good people wouldn’t Wouldn’t I have flagged this? Wouldn’t I have stood up publicly and said something? And I think uh this is the moment. I mean, what um to say something? We don’t really know what the direction is going to be, but I think there’s so many people who are so uh horrified that this that we’ve come so far.
Jessica Zander: We’re not even a year into this second administration. We’ve seen so much. there’s now a blueprint we can refer to which is project 20 25. Um so I yeah I just feel like it’s important to to shine a light on some of these things and gain as much traction as possible in terms of sentiment to try to reverse or prevent some of the things that are happening. So that’s kind of the connection. It’s like and then also like I was talking about the the advantages or privileges, you know, it’s it can’t just be about the things that affect us as individuals. It has to be broader. I think that’s what the Democratic Party is about largely, at least from my
Josh Klemons: or
Jessica Zander: vantage
Josh Klemons: supposed
Jessica Zander: point, is
Josh Klemons: supposed to be about right.
Jessica Zander: supposed to be about is like
Josh Klemons: Yeah.
Jessica Zander: everybody lifting everybody up.
Josh Klemons: Yeah.
Jessica Zander: And so I think we can’t be like in our own little bubbles about, oh well, my life isn’t impacted.
Josh Klemons: Right.
Jessica Zander: I’m not going to be, you know, this is not going to be a problem for me. But also, a lot of people don’t realize the extent to which they’re impacted because it’s not an obvious link. But I think we should care about our neighbors, sort of proverbial and, you know, imaginary and rep like hypothetical and actual neighbors. So, it’s all kind of for me that’s like it’s all related.
Josh Klemons: It’s and that’s a big question and a huge answer and I don’t want to like minimize it by asking something so small, but I am curious like by being public about that part of yourself, did you lose followers on the channel? Like I know you said there were folks who said they would unfollow you if you weren’t public about where you stood. Did folks unfollow you based on like you being public about where you did stand?
Jessica Zander: Oh, definitely.
Josh Klemons: Okay.
Jessica Zander: Of course. Oh, yeah. I
Josh Klemons: Was
Jessica Zander: expected
Josh Klemons: it a good
Jessica Zander: that.
Josh Klemons: riddance moment or were you were you conflicted or you like happy to see them go? Like I don’t know. How do you how do you how do you handle that when your business is built on having a
Jessica Zander: Right.
Josh Klemons: content pipeline?
Jessica Zander: Right. Oh, well, I think it needs to be carefully and considered. Um, I think, you know, to be naive and making choices and thinking they’re not going to impact um a following or actual business um is not pragmatic. Um but the other side of it is you solidify your following by them understanding who you are, you know.
Josh Klemons: Sure.
Jessica Zander: So I um and then the good riddance moment is like yeah I don’t think I want to give free gardening advice to people who are not if they don’t agree with me but if they’re going to be rude about it then I’ll cut them off you know because that’s just not that’s not okay with me. Um but I yeah of course I lost some but I also gained some
Josh Klemons: Okay. Interesting.
Jessica Zander: you know what I mean because that’s what happens. So then people forward to their friends or whatever and then or people will say like I’m going to be with you forever like I really appreciate your stand or what you know I’m doing I think you know you have to ask yourself why are you doing this? what what like I don’t want to also be like uh misguided or grandiose about it like people are
Josh Klemons: Sure.
Jessica Zander: following me because I’m a gardener you know and um but it’s interesting be they don’t come from my political content and I don’t want to be I don’t want to do that anyway I’m not I’m not a politician I’m not into all of that personally like I mean I follow politics but I’m not that’s not here to be a content creator for that
Josh Klemons: Sure.
Jessica Zander: obviously um but I think the, you know, the degree to which everything is so connected. Like, if you don’t realize, if you’re following me, if you don’t realize that gardening and all of that stuff is political, then you’re not you don’t get it or you’re not paying attention to what I’m actually saying and writing because it is political.
Jessica Zander: like people’s access, people’s choices. People’s ability to do things and not other things or feel, you know, um empowered to get out there. People who have resources don’t have resources, growing food, not growing food, being surrounded by invasives, having the resources to deal with them or not, like having access to education or whatever. Like everything is political at the end of the day. Um do I want to politicize everything? No, of course not. you know, but but I have to acknowledge that it’s it is all connected. Um, and a lot of people don’t necessarily see that. Um, but anyway, that’s my view of it is
Josh Klemons: Yeah.
Jessica Zander: everything is connected. It’s how do you divorce yourself? Especially in this time where it is so divisive and I think this administration is doing zero to try to unify people except you know in sort of antagonism toward others and
Josh Klemons: Mhm.
Jessica Zander: that’s a unifying effort deliberately but it’s very divisive for the country. Gardening is something which isn’t really divisive at all.
Jessica Zander: It’s it does bring people together because you can be um you know any kind of person from any type of background and you still can find connection with gardening which is something I love. So I and I don’t want to alienate people. I also don’t want to alienate people who are like may agree with my views and
Josh Klemons: Sure.
Jessica Zander: have share the same values but are also not on my site to think about politics. I’m very mindful of that also. But I sort of feel like look, if they’re here and they share the values, I can understand why I feel the need sometimes to share things or post my own stuff, original stuff. Yeah.
Josh Klemons: And I think a theme of like several of the last like things you said was the extent to which you see these as real people that you’re talking to, which I think probably a lot of people in there on the internet like forget that. So the idea that
Jessica Zander: Yeah.
Josh Klemons: you’re a real person like and yes most of your life is about garden you know your online life is about gardening but like you’re also a
Jessica Zander: Yeah.
Josh Klemons: real person just like them and like you can have other opinions and thoughts and like to
Jessica Zander: Yeah.
Josh Klemons: me that sounds healthy but I get that there are like I I know people sometimes tell you to stick to gardening which is like such a ridiculously rude thing to say but like what
Jessica Zander: All right.
Josh Klemons: like like you know what what’s your response to that for folks who are afraid of like being told to stick like stick to their stick to their lane. There’s there’s a famous quote from Michael Jordan that Republicans buy sneakers, too. So, he just stayed out of politics. Like, I guess I’m just curious if you could sum up your take. There are so many business owners who are afraid to be public about how they feel as people because it could hurt their business. Um, it sounds to me like it cost you some audience, but it also brought in new audience and more importantly, it connected you in a stronger way with an audience that actually like resonated with you.
Josh Klemons: So I guess on the whole I hear it as like a net positive but I don’t know maybe that’s too simple a summation of some of the things you’ve shared.
Jessica Zander: No, it is a net positive. I mean, I think and I don’t know exactly the numbers because I can’t tell when someone might unfollow. I mean, I usually have like 3,000 people unfollow me every month and Instagram anyway. And so around the time of this last um post that I did around the no kings thing, I think I had lost like 5,000 that
Josh Klemons: Okay.
Jessica Zander: that month, you know. So I can say there’s probably a net decrease of 2,000, you know. Does that matter in the grand scheme? No. you know, and those people again, I don’t want to be giving them free gardening advice necessarily. If they’re going to feel like they’re it’s so much offensive to their worldview that they don’t want to, you know, follow, that’s great. We’re in alignment. You know, they’re welcome to stay, they’re welcome to go, whatever.
Jessica Zander: The rude people I will actually block. Um, I think, yeah, all this stuff is is a business decision, but it’s also just a values decision. Um, and like I said before about this time, like I don’t feel that this is the time to be silent. Silence is complicit. So, you know, you’re being complicit if you’re silent. And again, that sounds a bit dramatic, but it is the truth in this situation, I think. Yeah.
Josh Klemons: Yep. The CFO in you is like sitting down to the progressive values in you saying numbers are not the only thing here. Like there’s there’s people in
Jessica Zander: Right.
Josh Klemons: values and community
Jessica Zander: But that’s
Josh Klemons: as well.
Jessica Zander: but that’s also consistent with how I was a CFO because
Josh Klemons: Okay.
Jessica Zander: I
Josh Klemons: Good.
Jessica Zander: worked in the nonprofit sector
Josh Klemons: Right.
Jessica Zander: and it’s very nuanced there.
Josh Klemons: Yeah.
Jessica Zander: You know, you can’t come at it in terms of efficiency only. You have to think about the impact to the people you’re serving.
Jessica Zander: Um so you can’t just be about numbers there. And so and I was always in my roles also responsible for other functional areas like IT and HR and you know um those types of things. And there you have to approach it with a complex um sort of expansive view of what the the organization is going through you know in its life cycle or what it’s dealing with what the constraints are what the opportunities are. It’s not just like a cut and dried more accounting kind of approach, you know.
Josh Klemons: Totally. Um, do you why do you think gardening is so po like do you think gardening is more popular today than it was 5 years ago? And if so, are people like just are are people using weeding to escape from CNN or is it like just a wonderful thing and more and more people are understanding how great it is? I’ve always had friends who are like in the farming and gardening space, but I feel like I have a lot more of them now. But that might just be like an internal thing.
Josh Klemons: I don’t know. You have a much larger worldview on this. Like what what’s your take on that?
Jessica Zander: I mean, I think that first of all, co um, you know, really forced people to be at home and then they’re looking around like, “Wow, I don’t like what I see. Let me let me go and improve this.” So, that’s one thing.
Josh Klemons: Sure.
Jessica Zander: Um, and then, yeah, I don’t know. I think there was just a kind of a confluence of factors that got people out there and maybe brands, you know, got hipped to the fact that they needed to start advertising more and people also had some extra income with the um the PPP loans or the, you know, the the various relief opportunities and didn’t have expenses commuting or by getting lunches
Josh Klemons: Shark.
Jessica Zander: that you know so there was extra disposable income around and um so I think that was really an opportunity and it is um kind of addictive like once you get going on it if you have the time and the interest not everybody has an interest and that’s totally fair I have friends most of my friends aren’t interested in gardening actually um but you know you then you pick up new friends too to add to the mix
Josh Klemons: Sure.
Jessica Zander: but um not to replace but just to add you
Josh Klemons: Sure.
Jessica Zander: know
Josh Klemons: Sure.
Jessica Zander: but um but anyway yeah I think um yeah I think it’s just a growing movement I mean we’re way behind the UK for example which
Josh Klemons: Interesting.
Jessica Zander: is so embedded in the culture like people know how a garden there in a way that we’re
Josh Klemons: Interesting.
Jessica Zander: just clueless here and we also have a culture of outsourcing as well like the to landscapers and so right so it’s like I think we’re way behind um in in this realm and people uh need to get back in touch with it for a variety of reasons you know it’s good for your mental health it’s good for budget it’s good for just sort of intellectual stimulation and the way our properties look you it’s can really be an enhancement but it’s just not part of our culture I don’t think in the US and that also varies by region um but yeah
Josh Klemons: Have you found like are there regions that are much more into it than others?
Josh Klemons: Like you have a national audience like is the west way more or less into gardening than the northeast or something else?
Jessica Zander: well I think there are constraints in different parts so like you know where it’s more aid you know it’s just like I’m just going to put a bunch of rocks in my front yard
Josh Klemons: There’s only
Jessica Zander: you
Josh Klemons: so much you can do in Arizona. Yeah, exactly.
Jessica Zander: And in in the south, you
Josh Klemons: We
Jessica Zander: know,
Josh Klemons: got
Jessica Zander: where
Josh Klemons: that
Jessica Zander: it’s
Josh Klemons: red clay in the south. I grew up in in North
Jessica Zander: right,
Josh Klemons: Carolina and yeah,
Jessica Zander: the
Josh Klemons: you can
Jessica Zander: clay,
Josh Klemons: garden there, but it is not the same as Midwest
Jessica Zander: right? And
Josh Klemons: where
Jessica Zander: it’s
Josh Klemons: I live now.
Jessica Zander: hot, right? It’s hot. Like, so I think I don’t I can’t tell with the demographics where most people are actually. Exactly. I There’s a lot of people from New England and there’s a lot of folks from the Midwest, but it’s also great because there people, you know, like you said, from all around the world.
Jessica Zander: I love hearing from people in different hemispheres, too. They’re in winter
Josh Klemons: So
Jessica Zander: when
Josh Klemons: cool,
Jessica Zander: we’re, you know,
Josh Klemons: right?
Jessica Zander: when we’re in
Josh Klemons: Yeah.
Jessica Zander: summer, like the New Zealanders, the Aussies,
Josh Klemons: Yeah.
Jessica Zander: whatever.
Josh Klemons: That’s
Jessica Zander: I
Josh Klemons: so
Jessica Zander: love that.
Josh Klemons: interesting.
Jessica Zander: Yeah. But, um, I think, um, so it varies by region, but I think that there’s it feels to me like a growing movement or interest in this stuff. So, I just happened to come around at the right time when that was h, you know, going on and was able to kind of join the wave, I think.
Josh Klemons: Yeah.
Jessica Zander: Yeah.
Josh Klemons: help push the wave forward but also ride it at
Jessica Zander: Yeah.
Josh Klemons: the same time. Yeah,
Jessica Zander: Yeah.
Josh Klemons: absolutely.
Jessica Zander: Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.
Josh Klemons: So, I I mentioned in my my sort of intro that like so, okay, in 2024, Donald Trump went on a bunch of podcasts and now there’s a bunch of people in the Democratic party who think that the answer is podcasts.
Josh Klemons: I’ve talked often that that is stupid. Like that’s not the answer. The answer is not podcast. Um the answer is platforms and audiences or sorry, it’s not the platform, it’s the audience. Like you have to
Jessica Zander: Mhm.
Josh Klemons: talk to people and that can happen in a lot of places. So I am question I am curious to you as somebody who is like again you’re not political but you do have like progressive values that come out in your channel and you’ve got very large audiences. Has anyone in politics in your area or elsewhere ever reached out and asked if they could come join you in your garden and talk directly to your audience?
Jessica Zander: No,
Josh Klemons: Not once. Uh
Jessica Zander: no,
Josh Klemons: if you did get that call, would you be interested in hosting them or is that like too outside the box of where you you live to be even like something you would consider?
Jessica Zander: I might. It has to be very much related to gardening. Like I did um a segment with Dave Cash, the former administrator of the EPA.
Josh Klemons: Mhm.
Jessica Zander: um EPA1 the you know the New England um and we were at his house and we were talking about compost composting and that was great. I mean he’s a friend but also you know he’s fantastic and he worked his butt off and needless to say the EPA is in disarray and in ruins and it’s so depressing. Um but anyway so that that was a natural alignment. It wasn’t a political segment. it was, “Hey, we’re talking about composting. Here’s the EPA region one administrator in his, you know, in his yard telling me about about all that.” So, that felt like a natural um thing. But, yeah, I don’t know. I I I’d love to hear your thoughts on that and like what what you’ve seen work and how you think that I don’t know how you think that could could go down.
Josh Klemons: Well, how I’ve seen it work is that it hasn’t happened yet. Like our
Jessica Zander: Ah.
Josh Klemons: party is still we are still trying to figure out like how do we find that one person who’s going to save us.
Josh Klemons: But to me the one of the many points that it misses is that like Donald Trump didn’t go on Joe Rogan to talk politics. He went on Joe Rogan to do Joe Rogan stickick like
Jessica Zander: Yeah.
Josh Klemons: you know he’s literally on Theo asking about cocaine like and like having a very casual conversation about UFC fighting and like Senator Warren who’s one of your two senators Elizabeth Warren I
Jessica Zander: All right.
Josh Klemons: would love to see her weeding alongside you not talking politics just being a normal person. I
Jessica Zander: Oh,
Josh Klemons: know
Jessica Zander: I
Josh Klemons: she’s
Jessica Zander: went
Josh Klemons: a normal
Jessica Zander: too.
Josh Klemons: person like
Jessica Zander: Oh,
Josh Klemons: you know
Jessica Zander: yeah.
Josh Klemons: and like to me like and again like maybe that’s like you know I I don’t know like but the idea that nobody has thought like okay you’re in my backyard some state rep or you know congress person from your neighborhood saying
Jessica Zander: Yeah.
Josh Klemons: wow you’re an interesting person who clearly shares my values who has a ton of followers.
Josh Klemons: I would love to talk directly to your audience and it doesn’t have to be political. Nobody needs you
Jessica Zander: Right.
Josh Klemons: to come on and ask them political
Jessica Zander: Right.
Josh Klemons: questions. Show
Jessica Zander: Oh,
Josh Klemons: me how to like show me how to weed my garden better and like
Jessica Zander: listen.
Josh Klemons: just show that I’m a normal person. Exactly.
Jessica Zander: Listen. If Senator Warren wanted to have me at her house where I could give her some feedback about her yard and teach her how to prune her vertidendrrons or whatever, bring it on. I would love that. That
Josh Klemons: Senator
Jessica Zander: would be
Josh Klemons: Warren
Jessica Zander: fun.
Josh Klemons: almost definitely does not listen to this podcast, but there is a very real chance that some of her staffers do. And if anybody from Senator Warren’s staff would like to reach out, Jess just said that there’s an open
Jessica Zander: Oh,
Josh Klemons: I’m just
Jessica Zander: I
Josh Klemons: kidding.
Jessica Zander: would love it.
Jessica Zander: Are you
Josh Klemons: Yeah.
Jessica Zander: kidding me? She’s
Josh Klemons: Uh
Jessica Zander: wonderful.
Josh Klemons: but I mean and there’s so many like we’re we as a party like again like Gavin Newsome starting his own podcast like we don’t know what to do to like reach this audience and then there’s people like you that already have an audience and that like share the values and again it doesn’t have to be political it has to be real and I think
Jessica Zander: Yeah.
Josh Klemons: like Liz Warren coming on your Instagram channel to talk gardening with you would get her more views than the hottest take she’s going to have on Twitter any day of the week. And like I would love to see our party moving in that direction, which again is like what spawned
Jessica Zander: Yeah.
Josh Klemons: me reaching out to you because I
Jessica Zander: Yeah.
Josh Klemons: think there’s an opportunity, but no one’s reaching out to you. So like you’re not part of it, but that’s not on you. That’s on our party to figure out like how do we change this conversation.
Josh Klemons: So that’s again I’m I’m connecting the dots for anybody who hasn’t figured out why I started talking about Joe Rogan in a conversation with Jezander because they are two very different people.
Jessica Zander: Right. Exactly.
Josh Klemons: Philosophy needs to flip for us. So that that’s my kind of like little uh my mini rant that I don’t usually do on this podcast, but I feel the need to connect the dots just in
Jessica Zander: Yeah.
Josh Klemons: case.
Jessica Zander: Yeah.
Josh Klemons: Um okay, cool. Um who do you look to for inspiration? Um as a content creator, as a human being, whatever. Um elected officials, brands, anybody else like who are you looking to to like find cool content ideas, but also just like to keep you motivated in the movement,
Jessica Zander: in the gardening movement. Um,
Josh Klemons: gardening movement or humanity,
Jessica Zander: yeah.
Josh Klemons: whatever.
Jessica Zander: Humanity.
Josh Klemons: Like
Jessica Zander: Well,
Josh Klemons: who do
Jessica Zander: you
Josh Klemons: you look
Jessica Zander: know,
Josh Klemons: to
Jessica Zander: it’s
Josh Klemons: to
Jessica Zander: interesting.
Josh Klemons: keep you sane these days in a
Jessica Zander: Right.
Josh Klemons: very difficult time?
Jessica Zander: Right. I seek solace in gardening personally. Um, and it’s great for mental health and for intellectual stimulation for for one thing. Like I’ll look at an area and just be puzzled by it and we’ll, you know, obsess not obsess over but like really think about it and um try different things and you know that that’s the kind of intellectual stimulation and and curiosity that
Josh Klemons: Sure.
Jessica Zander: I find so rewarding. I for content ideas I mean I’ve got my own garden and I’ve got all my clients gardens. I’ve now met with over 1,500 people um or
Josh Klemons: a
Jessica Zander: you know
Josh Klemons: lot.
Jessica Zander: clients. So yeah, it’s like endless endless um stream of content you know and some obviously some repeating themes pruning you know perennials dividing that you know hydrangeas whatever all of that design all that but um no need to I never am lacking in content. I’m just lacking in time to deal with all the video
Josh Klemons: Right.
Jessica Zander: that I have the backlog
Josh Klemons: Right.
Jessica Zander: and try to put that together because I’m a team of one. But
Josh Klemons: Mhm.
Jessica Zander: um no for inspiration for other content, you know, um and I I don’t spend a ton of time on the apps when I’m not doing my own thing, but I do definitely check out um some other people like so there’s some other gardeners I follow and I really want to support their work and promote what they’re doing. Um there’s and both, you know, just beautiful gardens, but also like, you know, information and technique or suggestions
Josh Klemons: Sure.
Jessica Zander: or whatever tips. Um, and I’m constantly learning from people, for example, about native plants and um, how they are so beneficial ecologically. So that’s been a huge learning curve for me over the last few years because I didn’t pay attention to that at all. So then I have to think about myself in that stage of not knowing anything and try to bring that to people who are new to it also and try to make it accessible and weave it in like I’m not ever I hope going to be one of these sort of militant people or like only natives you know only this only that um but to try to introduce these things kind of gently and lightly and kind of
Jessica Zander: try to enroll people into it but for my personal enjoyment too like I’ll go I follow a wide range as I’m sure so many people do of people and their content. So, cooking, you know, sort of outdoors, hiking or photography, inspiration, humor, dance, I love dance, um music, um and just random stuff like these people who are just doing incredibly creative things. I love art, too. So, like just seeing what people are doing is incredible to me. Um, so it’s it’s like a lot of the the unifying thread of all of that is creativity and I think gardening it I never thought of myself as a particularly creative person. My parents were both musicians grow when I was growing up and that is you know kind of right in my family tree so to speak but I think um I didn’t realize you know gardening is a kind of an art. It’s an artistic expression and I’m very creative in that space. So now I’ve started to think of myself as that way and also creative in terms of how I’m sharing the
Josh Klemons: Sure.
Jessica Zander: content. So it’s kind of consistent with that, you know, that I want to kind of absorb other people’s creativity. It’s like a feedback loop in a way, you know, it’s rich.
Josh Klemons: I I love it. Um, as someone with a large audience, what do you think would surprise most people about being a content creator?
Jessica Zander: I’m a very private person.
Josh Klemons: Yeah. I mean, how do you square that circle? like you just you get over it or is there like a you just is it easier to do it when it’s just you and a phone and then you pretend that there’s not a half a million people watching your content every day.
Jessica Zander: Well, it isn’t just me and my phone. It’s me and my client. I mean, I’m It works because I’m
Josh Klemons: Got
Jessica Zander: talking
Josh Klemons: it.
Jessica Zander: actually to a client, you
Josh Klemons: Yeah.
Jessica Zander: know? I’m talking to a real person. And um sometimes I’m just talking to a camera.
Jessica Zander: Like, if I’m in my yard, I might just be like holding the camera up and talking and I’m comfortable with that. But I think what it’s done is it’s forced me to overcome my any shyness I have um or res reluctance to being in in any kind of public arena because I I’m dying to get the information out. Like I just can’t help myself. I’m just compelled to share information. And so I just get over myself, you know, but
Josh Klemons: I
Jessica Zander: every
Josh Klemons: love it.
Jessica Zander: day when I press share I’m like uh you know bracing bracing, you know, sometimes for criticisms or whatever that’s part of it. But actually people in general are just so incredibly generous and helpful. Like people I actually ask in the you know every every time I post I have in the caption you like please help others if you’re able you know because I just can’t I can’t get to all the comments and questions and there are some really generous wonderful people out there who are looking out for that who want to help other people which I love so much.
Josh Klemons: I love it. Uh, how
Jessica Zander: Yeah.
Josh Klemons: can folks keep in touch with you moving forward?
Jessica Zander: Well, they can follow. Of course,
Josh Klemons: Yeah,
Jessica Zander: they can
Josh Klemons: sure.
Jessica Zander: follow on all the platforms.
Josh Klemons: I I’ll link it all in the in the notes, but just tell them
Jessica Zander: Yeah.
Josh Klemons: how they can find you if they’re they’re
Jessica Zander: Yeah.
Josh Klemons: not looking
Jessica Zander: Yeah.
Josh Klemons: at the notes right now.
Jessica Zander: Yep. Yeah. It’s you can do it gardening on um on all the platforms.
Josh Klemons: Facebook, Instagram,
Jessica Zander: Um
Josh Klemons: Tik Tok, and YouTube. And then you’ve also got
Jessica Zander: Yeah.
Josh Klemons: the website.
Jessica Zander: Yep. Exactly.
Josh Klemons: And
Jessica Zander: And
Josh Klemons: if
Jessica Zander: then
Josh Klemons: folks
Jessica Zander: of
Josh Klemons: want
Jessica Zander: course
Josh Klemons: a consultation, they
Jessica Zander: I
Josh Klemons: can just
Jessica Zander: was
Josh Klemons: hit
Jessica Zander: going
Josh Klemons: you
Jessica Zander: to
Josh Klemons: up
Jessica Zander: say
Josh Klemons: through the site. Yeah.
Jessica Zander: Yeah. If and if people want a little more in-depth um sort of customized uh you know assistance for their own property, they can sign up on the website, fill in a form for local folks in the Boston area, greater Boston. I mean, I’ve been to you know, New Hampshire and Rhode Island and Connecticut and um you know, all over Massachusetts. I mean, my preferred is right in the greater Boston area, but I also love taking these road trips because then
Josh Klemons: sure.
Jessica Zander: I see
Josh Klemons: Good
Jessica Zander: parts
Josh Klemons: excuse
Jessica Zander: of
Josh Klemons: to
Jessica Zander: New England
Josh Klemons: travel.
Jessica Zander: that are really
Josh Klemons: Yeah.
Jessica Zander: fun, but I also do uh the the virtual sessions as well. Yeah.
Josh Klemons: Brilliant. Well, thank you so much for taking some time on a rainy New Hampshire day to
Jessica Zander: Yes,
Josh Klemons: check in with
Jessica Zander: my
Josh Klemons: us
Jessica Zander: pleasure.
Josh Klemons: and uh to talk about uh content creation in a complicated world. So, I really appreciate your time and uh I I Yeah, I really appreciate your time.
Jessica Zander: No problem. Thanks so much for having me, Josh.